How Much Should I Put My Dog Through?

[TamiBCB]

My dog, Sebastian, is at least 17 years old - not too sure of age because I got him from the Humane Society. He's part Shih Tzu, part Pekingnese, has had cataracts for many years, very hard of hearing, has just become a very frail dog, has a hard time walking very far and can't make a 4" step (up or down). Here's his history.

About 3 months after I adopted him, he became very sick and was in the hospital for 10 days. The vet did not expect him to live. That was 12 years ago. However, because of the trauma, a short time later I had to stop taking him into a vet's office because they thought he would have a heart attack. He would shake and begin convulsing from the fear. I began taking him to the mobile vaccinations until 4 years ago when the vet told me that he was too old to endure the stress (shaking and convulsing) of the shots. Because he is an indoor dog and does not stray outside of our fenced backyard, she advised that I skip the shots. Believe me when I tell you that I feared a heart attack every time. And it would take 2 or 3 days for him to calm down and get back to normal. I have a groomer that comes to my house to groom him. Even though he's known the groomer for 7 years now, he still shakes but not bad enough (I hope) for a heart attack.

For the past several months, he has had increased appetite, constantly thirsty and frequent urination. Either Cushing's or diabetes. He decided that my dining room was to become his toilet. It began small (only that room smelled) but now my entire house smells like urine. I called a vet crying and begging so he is coming to my house today to see what can be done.

He can't survive a daily shot. He has never tolerated meds well. I'm really scared that any treatment prescribed will not be tolerated by him. What should I put him through?

And what can I do about my dining room, AKA his toilet? I have had 3 professional carpet cleaning services clean it to no avail. Please help!

I feel so guilty being concerned about my dining room. I'm just not sure what to do - about my dining room or Sebastian.

Thanks for any advice you have. I need all that I can get right now.

[Rivatwo]

Hi Tami,
I am probably going to make myself unpopular here but.....

At 17 I don't think that I would take extraordinary measures to prolong his life if I didn't feel that he was getting the quality life that he should have. 17 is very old for a dog and there is a time that we do need to "let go". I went throught this last summer with my 18 year old cat.

Don't feel guilty about your concern for your dining room and the smell in your house. You and your family live there. You want a clean house for your children to live and play in.

You need to decide how much "qualtiy life" Sebastian has. Is he happy? Is he comfortable? It sounds like you have spent much time and money keeping Sebastian happy, healthy and comfortable. You need to do what is right for you and your family and Sebastian. Don't feel guilty or beat your self up over it. It is so hard sometimes to let go but sometimes that is what we need to do.

Judy

[acushdogsmom]

Hi Tami,

For the most part I agree with Judy, so if that is an unpopular point of view, I guess that will make me unpopular too.

I believe that we owe it to our pets to do the very best we can for them, but inevitably the time comes when what is best for them is to set them free.

Before you decide though, perhaps that Vet who agreed to make a house call to see Sebastian could manage to figure out if maybe he just has a bad urinary tract infection, which could be causing the symptoms and which could be cleared up with a round of antibiotics.

If the Vet can determine that it's Diabetes, it's much less stressful than you think it is to give daily insulin injections. They are done by the owner at home in a spot (scruff of the neck?) that really does not hurt the dog at all. Many Diabetic dogs don't even realise they are getting the shot, and a small treat can be used as a diversion and then the treat can be given right after the shot, so a dog often associates the injection time with treat time.

If it is diabetes, please check out the Diabetes website and message board for information and support, the folks there are wonderful. They will tell you that once the diabetes is regulated the difference in the dog is amazing, pee accidents will stop etc.

Diabetic dogs messageboard link:

pub141.ezboard.com/fpetsw...nediabetes (http://pub141.ezboard.com/fpetswithdiabetescaninediabetes)

Diabetic pets website link:

www.petdiabetes.org/contents.htm (http://www.petdiabetes.org/contents.htm)

If the Vet believes that Sebastian has Cushing's, and if you and the Vet agree that treatment with Lysodren or Trilostane and the testing that would be needed to monitor the meds would be too much for Sebastian, then perhaps a trial of Anipryl could help alleviate the symptoms. Doggie diapers may also be helpful to prevent Sebastian from peeing on the carpet.

If you do truly believe that it is time to let Sebastian go, have a look at this link:
www.specialneedspets.org/euthanasia.htm (http://www.specialneedspets.org/euthanasia.htm)

Scroll down to "How do you know when it's time?". It is a beautifully written "article" that addresses this very difficult decision that we must all make eventually.

Although I believe strongly in doing everything possible to treat our pets when they are ill, I also think that the most unselfish decision we can ever make in our lives is to give our pets a final gift of peace when the treatment does not really offer any hope of recovery or when it is unreasonable or unfeasible to administer treatment.

You have given Sebastian a good and loving home for many years, and he is part of your family. I know you love him very much, or you wouldn't be here looking for help.

At a time like this you need to think what is best for Sebastian. If it is possible to improve his quality of life, then you should at least try do that for him. If you believe that there is no way to accomplish that goal, then your duty to him is to make sure he does not suffer.

My heart goes out to you at this difficult time.

[Audrey]

Hi, Tami,

I think I agree with Judy and Cushy. Given Sebastian's age and general health, if there is something that can be done to make his quality of life better, then I would pursue that, but I don't think I would consider any very aggressive treatments at this point. As Cushy suggested, if he does turn out to have diabetes, you might find it easier than you think to give him the injections yourself -- in addition to the scruff, you can also probably give them under the skin in the flank, which seems to be what my dog prefers for his monthly DOCP shot. If he turns out to have Cushing's, you could try him on Anipryl; it isn't effective in many dogs, but also generally doesn't have much in the way of side effects. But I think Lysodren treatment would be too much for him. My dog was eight years old when he was diagnosed with Cushing's -- he still had a very good quality of life and many more years left in his natural lifespan. This was definitely a factor in deciding to treat his Cushing's aggressively, and I think my decision might have been very different if his age and health had been more like Sebastian's.

Regarding your dining room -- it sounds at this point like you may just have to remove the carpet in that room. If you don't have wood floors underneath, perhaps you could temporarily cover the floor with some inexpensive rag rugs you can throw in the washer. Alternatively, I believe there are temporary flooring surfaces available that you could look into. I have heard of some that are kind of like rubber mats that interlock like puzzle pieces to reach the desired size -- people use them so that they can do aerobics, etc. on concrete slab flooring. You may be able to get these at Home Depot. Neither of these would look too attractive, but I think it's better than having your home smell like urine. By getting rid of the smell, it might also make it easier to direct Sebastian to an area covered with "Wee-wee pads" that you can dispose of once he's used them.

It sounds like you love Sebastian very much, and I wish you the best in making this difficult decision.

Audrey

[TamiBCB]

Thank you all so much for your answers. You have no idea how much you have helped me. The vet does not think Sebastian would survive testing, let alone treatment. If Sebastian has any pain, the vet said he thinks it is probably minimal. However, he said that if he were his dog, he'd just give him a shot so he could sleep, not today but soon.

I'm just not ready to do that yet. I'm trying to prepare myself. I honestly don't think Sebastian is in any pain so I have a hard time rationalizing that I should put him to sleep. I'm working through this. I was in denial for a long time so at least I'm past that stage.

I bought him a doggie diaper and he left it on all night so there's hope. He eats and drinks well so he's not lame. I'm just afraid of doing it too soon. I'd like to try everything possible first.

Cush, that link about euthanization was great; thanks.

Thank you all again. You have no idea how much help you have been. It's a comfort to know that you understand and have gone through this same thing. Thank you.

P.S. I'm so sorry about the picture. I post on a couple of other boards and this has never happened. I have no idea why it did here. I am really sorry. I edited to get it out but nothing worked. I even changed my preferences at my control center. I'm sorry.

[acushdogsmom]

Hi Tami,

Don't worry about the picture thing ... maybe Howard (our Board owner) can figure out something to "fix" that in your original post. The photo doesn't appear in your second post so what you did at the control center must have worked for messages written after you made the change.

I hope the doggie diapers will help, but do keep an eye on Sebastian's skin under the diapers, I'm thinking that if he does have any accidents in the diaper it could cause skin irritation (like diaper rash) so try to keep that area as clean and dry as you can.

As Audrey mentioned there is also a product called "pee pads" or something like that. I've never used them but know some people who have, and they say that their dogs are attracted to wee on the pads, which they leave out in strategic places in the house, and the dogs will pee on those pads rather than on other places (like the carpets). I'm not sure how they work, but if they can work to attract Sebastian to pee on those disposable pads you might be able to give him a break from the diapers once in a while. (ie to let the skin "breathe")

You may have to remove your carpets to get the urine smell out of the house, but if they are already urine soaked you'd probably have to remove them anyway, not only because you fear that Sebastien will smell the urine and continue to pee on those places.

I'm glad if we could help you in any way.

(((hugs)))

[sachimom]

Hi Tami,
We are a very unpopular group! I also agree that aggressive treatment for Sebastian would not be to his benefit. The “cure” could be worse than the disease as he does not tolerate vet visits. Since both Lysodren and Trilostane require periodic blood tests, Anipryl could be a very good choice. It is pretty benign and is also used in older dogs for behavior problems. There are no blood tests to check if it is working, treatment is determined by relief of clinical signs. An informative Anipryl site with some good links: vetmedicine.about.com/lib...062499.htm (http://vetmedicine.about.com/library/weekly/aa062499.htm) Sachi has taken Anipryl (selegiline) for about 8 months with no side effects. We chose Anipryl because her clinical signs were very mild - no excessive eating or drinking - just good ole’ pot belly and pee problems. For the first six months, I couldn’t complain. However, she has had two UTI’s in the last 1-1/2 months. Which corresponds to pee accidents.

So you might want to have Sebastian’s urine checked for an urinary tract infection. All you have to do is collect some (preferably the first of the day- but will usually take any) and take it to the vet. Sebastian does not have to go with you! If you collect some and can’t take it in right away, just put it in jar and refrigerate it. They could also check that urine for signs of Cushings (low specific gravity) and diabetes (glucose) giving some guidance as to the direction to take. It is amazing how well the antibiotics will clear up the UTI and pee problems within a few days. If you have problems collecting, you might check with the vet if they could check his diaper urine. One vet had these little stick things that she rubbed on a towel that Sachi had peed on while at the vet office. I think it checked for blood or pH - anyhow it was a quick and dirty method that let her know that Sachi had a UTI.

I am not sure that the wee wee pads will work for Sebastian. He would have to be trained to use them, and I know they say you can teach an old dog new tricks, but this would be asking a lot. We have had a pee pad down for Sachi to use, if she needs it, since she was a youngster. She will use it if she can’t get outside, but her accidents are dribbles (or streams) down the hallway, across the living room, dining room, etc. - anywhere it is easily found by walking around with stocking feet. So even though she has been trained to use the pad, she still has the carpet accidents. I use Natures Miracle (an enzyme) cleaner on my carpet. Someone also recommended products from www.justrite.com (http://www.justrite.com) that are suppose to be real good. I don’t know how bad your carpet is, but the people there are suppose to be very helpful. I think the diapers are a great solution for Sebastian. They could save your sanity. I know how frustrating it can be when they go out every half hour and you still find accidents. We’ll be here to listen.
Take care, Mary Ann

[EllenF]

I went through almost everything you are going through with an American Eskimo dog I had for 19 years. The diapers are wonderful, and so is Nature's Miracle which I always keep in my cabinet at all times. That product really cuts the odor. The other thing I can tell you about is Arm & Hammer Baking Soda Products for the carpet. They have one for pet odor, and it is great.
I agree that Sebastian should be able to live out the rest of his life in peace without a lot of trips to the veterinarian's office. However, I would follow the advice that was given here to have his urine checked for any type of infection. That may be why he is having so many accidents. At the same time, they can check for other problems.
If there is Cushings, Anipryl would be a good choice for an older dog.
Please keep us updated. We are here to support you.
Ellen & Snowdrop

[TamiBCB]

Thanks again for your responses. I tried the diapers but Sebastian just shook violently until I took them off. I've used the wee pads in the past but he just goes in a different spot or moves the pads with his paws to make a hole.

Regarding the odor, I have a wonderful friend who gave me some Capture, an odor neutralizer, and it is actually working. My friend had used it before her cat passed away due to renal failure so she knew it worked.

After much consideration and lengthy discussions with the vet, we are going to spoil Sebastian rotten (even more so than normal) until he experiences any pain. Then we will do what is best for Sebastian.

I asked about urinary infection but the vet said he had too many other symptoms for just an infection. I was too scared to ask exactly what.

You all have made this so much easier for me. Thank you. I'm so sorry you have all been through the same thing. You have truly convinced me that, when the time comes, I must not be selfish. That is the hardest part.

Thank you again for all of your help.

[acushdogsmom]

Tami,

I don't know where you live, but I just found this link which may be helpful to you. It is a link to the webpage of the American Association of Housecall Veterinarians.

www.athomevet.org (http://www.athomevet.org)

They even have a "locator" button which can help you find a housecall Vet in your area.

I know you got a Vet to come to your house to have a look at Sebastian, and he was very kind to do that service for you, but if a housecall isn't something he'd usually do, he might not have encouraged you to pursue finding out what is wrong with Sebastian because he might have been thinking that he can't keep on coming to your house, and you can't bring Sebastian in to the clinic so he might have thought there's no point in suggesting doing any tests at all ...

But if there is a housecall Vet near you, he/she may be a really good resource for you.

Many of the tests can easily be done at home, often involving just a simple blood draw or obtaining a urine sample to get quite a lot of information as to what is going on. You'd be surprised how uncomfortable a urinary tract infection can be and how many symptoms it can cause and also how much better a pet will feel once they are on the right antibiotics to clear up an infection like that.

Even if there is more than a simple urinary tract infection going on, if you can clear up just one problem he may be having, it will help Sebastian to feel better. (a UTI could explain the pee accidents too)

I think it is important to find out whatever you can that could be wrong, because whatever it is might be much easier to treat than you think and I'm sure that it would help Sebastian to feel better if he was treated. If you can get a housecall Vet to come see Sebastian at your home, that might be your best bet to help to keep Sebastian as well as you can.

And if a test reveals something you can't treat for some reason, then at least you'd know what's wrong and what to look out for that could be a sign that Sebastian might be suffering in some way.

I'm not suggesting you run every test in the book, but a housecall Vet might at least run a few test. A urine analysis, for example, could tell you if there's a UTI (urinary tract infection) and might also tell you if Diabetes is even a remote possibility.

There is also a urine test called the Cortisol:Creatinine ratio test that if it's negative would rule out Cushing's. A positive on the urine cortisol creatinine ratio test doesn't mean it's Cushing's for sure, but if it's negative and it can rule out Cushing's, well hey, it would be nice if you could rule out Cushing's, right? :)

Anyhow, I just thought you might like to check out the Housecall Vets link. And also maybe look in your yellow pages too and see if there are any housecall Vets listed there.

The symptoms you see, even just the excessive urination, may be symptoms you can do something about, and a housecall Vet might be exactly what you need.

The regular Vet, even though he was nice to come over to have a "look-see" would really need the pet to come to his clinic to do the tests he would normally want to do.

A housecall Vet is used to accomodating pets in their own homes. That's exactly what they do all the time.

Hope this helps.